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Mark Hertsgaard
Interviewed by Andrew Duncan

An author, journalist, and broadcaster Mark Hertsgaard has written five books and numerous articles for publications both here and abroad. His work has appeared in The New Yorker, Time, Newsweek, Vanity Fair, Harper's, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Nation, Die Zeit, The London Independent, The Guardian, Le Monde Diplomatique, Yomiuri Shimbun, and Ha'aretz among many others. He is a frequent guest on television and radio programs, and a regular contributor to National Public Radio. Visit his website: www.markhertsgaard.com.

What initially compelled you to write The Eagle's Shadow?

Well, I began working on the book about a year before September 11, 2001. I spent the last 10 years traveling around the world writing books and working as a journalist for various American and European newspapers and magazines, and every single place I went, America was a topic that was on people's minds.

The previous book I wrote was a book on the global environmental future called Earth Odyssey. I traveled to 19 countries from about 1991 to 1997, and every place I went people would always answer my questions about the environment. But once they found out I was from the United States, that's what they wanted to talk about: everything from questions to comments to opinions to complaints. It was nonstop, it was passionate, and it showed a lot of interest and some knowledge -- but also some ignorance. What I never found was indifference, and it just struck me this dramatic interest in the United States should be explored.

What kind of attitudes and opinions about the United States did you find in other countries?

There were lots of differences. Japan was probably the most pro-American place that I visited, which is quite astonishing. That was different from Egypt where there was much more criticism of the United States -- mainly because of Israel.

The other great divide I noticed was generational. Young people everywhere tend to be much, much more pro-American in the sense of America's pop culture: music, TV, film, fashion, food. Young people around the world are absorbing that quite enthusiastically. I know some anti-globalization people probably don't want to hear that, but it's simply the truth. And it's very different from the older generation, who are quite wary of that.

How were you able to get a book that is critical of the United States published here?

Originally, I thought this book would only be for my foreign publishers. It was going to be for foreign readers, and the working title was actually "America Explained." The book may have even stayed that way if September 11 not happened.

I did not necessarily expect this book to get published here in the United States. Not because I didn't want to communicate with Americans, but because I feared that there wouldn't be much interest. That's the point of The Eagle's Shadow's initial chapter: the first inequality between us and the rest of the world is that they can never stop thinking about us, and we almost never even start thinking about them -- at least prior to September 11.

My Dutch publishers are the ones who set the format for the book. They convinced me to do the idea as a short essay rather than a long book. After everything was set in Holland, I contacted my agent in New York and she said, "I think this could sell in New York." Then, when September 11 happened, suddenly there was enormous interest in The Eagle's Shadow in America as well as elsewhere.

The Eagle's Shadow is tentatively scheduled to be published in around 12 countries. It came out last September in Britain, Holland, Belgium, France, and Denmark. Here and in Japan it came out last November. In February or March it comes out in Germany, Italy, Spain, and Brazil. And we are also in negotiations with China and Taiwan.

When you were in England, what was the reaction to Tony Blair's support of the United States?

Blair was being called "Bush's poodle." The BBC aired a two-hour long documentary, and that was the headline that came out of it: "Blair Called Bush's Poodle." Apparently that was something that was being said behind closed doors by people in Britain. I read a figure on the BBC website claiming most of Blair's own Labor Party MPs oppose war in Iraq. So, it's going to be trouble for him.

Here's another danger of Americans not knowing anything about the rest of the world: We don't realize just how overwhelmingly the rest of the world opposes this war. That doesn't mean they're right. They may be wrong. But if we're going to go ahead and launch this war, it is important to know that people are NOT with us. There's a difference between twisting people's arms to get their obedience, and genuine support of the American position. And there is not a lot of genuine support for the American position.

What's the reaction to The Eagle's Shadow been like in Europe?

Very different than here. Much more enthusiastic. When I was there in September, I was treated like I was a rock star in the sense of how much media attention the book received from the big, national, mainstream media.

I remember I flew overnight to London, got to my hotel at 3:30 pm, and within three hours I was live on the national evening news -- the No. 1 news show -- for a seven-minute interview at the end of the broadcast. Five days later on September 11 I had an op-ed in The Guardian newspaper, and I was also on the BBC morning show, the evening show, the overnight, the world service, and on and on and on.

In Holland it was even more so. All the major papers, public TV, and radio did big stories. In Antwerp, Belgium, there was a nationally televised broadcast where I debated my book with the former Prime Minister and the former head of NATO in front of an audience of 900 people.

That kind of reaction contrasts very markedly to the one here in the United States where -- with the exception of Bill Moyers -- not one major national broadcast has had me on. And these are all shows I've been on with past books: "Nightline," "Good Morning America," "Today Show," "Larry King," "Crossfire," "Fresh Air," "All Things Considered." Not one of those shows has had me on. I've done local NPR in New York, L.A., and San Francisco, but that's it.

It's not that they don't know about the book. Part of the reason that I chose Farrar-Strauss is it's the most prestigious publisher in America, and every media outlet in the country looks at their list. So, it's not that they don't know about this book. They simply choose not to pay any attention to it.

And, you know, whatever. Most writers don't get their books noticed. But when you compare the way this book was received overseas with the way that it's being ignored or attacked here, it's a very interesting contrast. It really illustrates the point of the book: the establishment/the gatekeepers/ the mainstream opinion shapers/the powers that be don't want to hear anything about the United States that is genuinely critical or does honest self-examination instead of the kind of fluff we've had since September 11.

But you didn't run into any problems getting the book published here in the United States?

No. In fact, there was a competition for it. There were about 18 publishers who were sent the proposal, and at the end it came down to just two or three. You can see the criticism foreshadowed even there. One very prominent editor in New York wrote back and said, "I admire Mark's writing even when I don't agree with him, but I don't think Americans want to be lectured right now." As if any sort of criticism is a "lecture" and therefore something that we don't want to hear about. That's very much the attitude. This was the same attitude in The New York Times review, which accused me of writing some sort of an angry, hectoring rant of a book. I don't know. Read it and see. It's not the way foreigners have reacted to it.

If it were it probably would sell better. Seriously, look at the kinds of books that make it to the bestseller list. Michael Moore's, for example, shows that you can have a left-wing opinion in the United States and still sell a lot of books. And I'm very happy for him. I'm happy for ANY author that sells a lot of books. Now, Michael has the advantage of having a big name because of his films, but it's a very different kind of book. It's a very different kind of discourse. So, maybe if I'd been a little bit more outrageous, maybe it would've worked. Who knows? It's not my style.

What are you hoping to accomplish with The Eagle's Shadow?

I think it is absolutely crucial that the United States re-think its relationship with the rest of the world. If for no other reason than our own self-interest. We need to have a real honest self-examination of where our foreign policy is wise and proper and where it is not. If we don't, we're going to regret it.

Also, I guess in some small way I hope to start a debate and open some eyes in this country to how our relations work with the rest of the world. To realize the rest of the world -- not the Bin Ladens, but the majority -- wants to stand with Americans, and they will if we treat them with respect rather than as subjects we command.

A recent survey of 38,000 people around the world -- the biggest public survey in history -- found that the United States is actually less popular today than it was before September 11. We emerged from September 11 as THE victim in the world. We were showered with sympathy and solidarity. Yes, there were the Islamic Fundamentalists who were happy about the attacks. Yes, there were the critics. But that was the minority. The vast majority of people around the world felt for America and sympathized with America and stood with America. Now, here it is barely a year later and we have alienated those people. Those people are no longer supporting us.

Now, how do you do that? That's an amazing accomplishment, and we need to look at why that's the case. You know, if we want to defeat Al Qaeda, we cannot do that on our own. We need the help of foreign intelligence agencies. We need the help of foreign banks to shut off their money. We need the help of foreign populations to keep pro-American governments in power. We absolutely have to have better relations with the rest of the world, and instead of that, we treat the rest of the world with indifference bordering on arrogance. And then we're surprised when they don't obey when we tell them what to.

Is there any way that the United States could quickly change this perception of themselves overseas?

Quickly? Sure, a lot of it is tone and not just content. When you treat people like servants when they're not your servants, they understandably get pissed off. If we would just genuinely listen…the fact that pretty much everybody else in the world thinks that war in Iraq is not a good idea should tell us something. That we're the only country that supports the Sharon government of Israel should tell us something. It doesn't mean that we're wrong and the rest of the world is right, it's not that simple. But it should give us pause when we are so isolated on so many of these issues. People should be saying, "Are we really so much smarter than everyone else?"

As you point out in the book, after September 11 nothing really changed in the United States -- celebrity culture and self-imposed ignorance returned.

The worst part of it is how my colleagues in the press have retrenched. There was a moment there after September 11 when they realized or remembered that news was supposed to be about something. That we have a public trust as journalists. Boy, that sure didn't last long. So now it's back to the celebrity culture and really banging the drums for war.

Why? Two reasons. The first is the press always loves a war: it's good for careers, it's good for ratings, it's a big story. And, except for the real brave journalists out there on the front line, they don't have to die.

The other reason is, in general, the media in the United States covers the world from the perspective of Washington. They don't do it overtly. It's more that they won't step outside of the mindset of official Washington. However official Washington frames the issues, that's what the press reflects. For example: in Iraq the issue isn't "What's been happening to the civilians because of U.S. sanctions over the years?" but rather "Is Saddam Hussein a threat and how quickly will he have nuclear weapons?" And that leads toward "Why don't we go in and disarm him?" Maybe that's a valid point, but the problem is the media leaves out so many other valid points. That's what I mean about the drum-beating. It's not like the press is consciously trying to serve as Bush's megaphone, but that's the effect.

What do you think it will take to get Americans caring or involved in government again, or concerned with any of these issues?

I honestly don't know. I wish I could give you an answer. I've thought about it. Some people say it will take another terrorist attack or two, but first of all, that's not what we should want, and second, I'm not sure it would have that effect. It might just further scare people, and make them all the more ready to give away their liberties as they have with the USA Patriot Act and such.

I suppose in some sense it takes real political leadership, and we haven't seen any real political leadership in this country since really Ronald Reagan. And I don't defend Reagan -- I'm quite a critic -- but he was a great leader. He had his beliefs and he was able to convey them to the country in a way that moved people. We haven't had anything like that since he left office. Clinton had some of the same gifts, but was so clearly out only for himself that he didn't have any principles. And Clinton in particular symbolizes how big money has come to just dominate everything, and I think that's perhaps the main cause of citizen disenchantment. There's this sense that politics is irreparably sullied by big money, and there's nothing that the average citizen can do. There's also a feeling that big money contributions are making politicians in both parties increasingly remote from average Americans' real concerns.

So, how do you turn that around? I don't really know. I like to think that we could do it. I do believe that it has to come from the grass roots and accommodation of the grass roots and real leadership. I don't see any real leaders out there in either party. I'm sorry to sound pessimistic. I don't feel pessimistic because I do still have great faith in the American people and I know that there are a lot of people out there who care about these issues. I mean, look at the way the anti-war movement is building. It's so much more powerful and visible now than it was at a comparable stage in the Vietnam conflict. American history moves in cycles and maybe we're about to enter a cycle of increased activism and perhaps this move to war will help animate civic activism again.

Do you have another book planned?

Not at the moment. I'm focusing just on The Eagle's Shadow, and I'm doing a couple big pieces for The New York Times Magazine and Harper's.

Also, I'm hosting a TV show on World Link Television, which is a new non-profit satellite channel. On my show we bring investigative programs and documentaries from around the world -- mainly from the BBC -- and show them here to give Americans a sense of what real investigative journalism is: It's not "60 Minutes" going down and busting the local gas station. Investigative journalism is somebody going in and exposing sweatshops in Cambodia, that kind of thing.

Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Collected Thoughts[1] in Berkeley is great; BookSmith[2] is my local; A Clean Well Lighted Place[3]: Those are three that I really like and patronize. And back in Washington: Politics and Prose[4].

The Eagle's Shadow: Why America Fascinates and Infuriates the World

Buy Mark Hertsgaard's books on BookSense.com.
Visit Mark Hertsgaard's website: www.markhertsgaard.com.

[1] Collected Thoughts, 1816 Euclid Avenue, Berkeley, CA (510) 843-1816
[2] The Booksmith, 1644 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA (415) 863-8688
[3] A Clean Well Lighted Place For Books, 601 Van Ness Avenue, San Francisco, CA (415) 441-6670
[4] Politics and Prose, 5015 Connecticut Avenue NW, Washington, DC 1(800) 722-0790

Further Reading:

• Tony Horwitz
• Renee Askins
• Jim Motavalli
• Marcus Stevens
• Daniel Quinn

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